MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Six years after he died in his jail cell in what was ruled a suicide, disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein is very much back in the news. This month, President Trump's Department of Justice concluded there was no evidence that Epstein kept a client list of associates or that he was murdered. A portion of Trump's core supporters, especially those adjacent to conspiracy theories like QAnon - they remain vocally unconvinced that this is all the government knows about Jeffrey Epstein. And some congressional Republicans are now joining Democrats in pressing to know more.
Now, earlier in his life, Donald Trump was known to be friends with Jeffrey Epstein. So why, six years later, is this the issue that has driven a wedge in the MAGA base? For answers, we have called Travis View. He cohosts the "QAA Podcast." That's a podcast that tracks and debunks online conspiracy theories. Travis View, welcome back.
TRAVIS VIEW: Thank you so much for having me, Mary Louise.
KELLY: And start with that question I just posed. Why is this the issue that split the MAGA ranks?
VIEW: Well, because for as long as Trump has been involved in sort of presidential politics, MAGA influencers and, like, you know, even QAnon or the populist right conspiracists have portrayed Trump as uniquely positioned to do away with, like, Epstein-style corruption. So they had very high hopes for many, many years that he would be the one to expose all the scandal surrounding the Epstein saga.
KELLY: I'm curious about how much this really, really is important as an issue to some of these Trump supporters and how much of this is political theater. Have you seen anything that really illustrates, like, how deeply do they care about Jeffrey Epstein and what we know about him?
VIEW: Well, the importance of child protection, I mean, I think it really runs deep on the populist right. And so, as a consequence, you know, Trump dismissing the Epstein list or the Epstein files as some sort of Democratic hoax has come as quite a shock. I mean, I think probably the most illustrated example of how fracturing this is to his base is that Jacob Chansley, you know, better known as the QAnon Shaman, who served about 27 months for his participation in the January 6 riot, even called him a fraud.
KELLY: How are you reading the conversation among Trump supporters over what seems to be a hard needle to thread? - the argument, simultaneously, that there are no major revelations in the Epstein documents. There's nothing to see here. And yet, we have Speaker Mike Johnson, who's just sent House members home early for summer recess to stop a push to release the Epstein documents. Like, if there's nothing to see here, why can't we see them?
VIEW: Yeah, it really doesn't make sense. I mean, there are certainly some people who are, you know, so deeply invested in the narrative that Trump is some sort of a child protector or some sort of person who is somehow immune to typical watching corruption, that they still have faith in him. But I've seen people who have had dedicated many, many years of their lives to supporting Trump and all of a sudden questioning why he's behaving like this. It is very baffling.
KELLY: Any particular names within Republican circles that stand out to you as surprising in raising questions about Epstein and the Epstein documents now?
VIEW: Yeah, I have been very surprised to see Marjorie Taylor Greene raise questions about this. She's typically a very reliable Trump supporter, and prior to her congressional career, she even promoted QAnon. But on this issue, she broke from Trump and demanded the release of more information. Her exact words was that she was sick of Trump dangling bits of red meat.
KELLY: I mean, can you remind us - I'm trying to cast my mind back and recall - what the standard line on Jeffrey Epstein was within QAnon circles?
VIEW: Yeah, well, they believe that this is something that was embarrassing primarily to Democrats. And sometimes QAnon followers - they acknowledge that Trump had associated with Epstein, but sometimes they hand-waved it away by believing that he was somehow, like, deep undercover or that he did not sort of, like, participate in the child abuse and trafficking that Epstein took part in, or he was not aware of it, or he was aware of it and he was playing some sort of long game to take Epstein down. But his most recent actions - you know, sort of, like, Epstein is a hoax and trying to - directing his Department of Justice to say that, you know, there's no more revelations to be found - doesn't quite fit those beliefs.
KELLY: Well, let's game this out. Say more Epstein files are eventually released. They come to light. Say Donald Trump is mentioned in them. Do you foresee a world where Trump supporters would actually abandon Trump?
VIEW: Some may. That would be a red line. That may be the only really significant red line. But for the large majority, I mean, there's lots of ways they could reconcile it. They could believe that was maybe planted by the deep state or some other sort of way that they can sort of explain it away. I mean, like I said, when you've dedicated so many years to the support of a single man, for some, it is literally just cognitively impossible to believe that he could do something so evil.
KELLY: Travis View, co-host of the "QAA Podcast" and producer of the podcast network Cursed Media. Thank you.
VIEW: Thank you so much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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